FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

oh, ok, so they county gives a dog a place to hang out, and play, but WONT give the HUMAN a place to ride a ATV-WTF, something is wrong with this picture..

No more driving to the Bonita Doggy Beach, my dog loves going there and I've been taking her at least once a month. It's about time, now she can be exhausted at home instead of on the ride back and ready to go once again when we get home, lol. I'll be there throughout the summer for sure :)

Don't forget to chopper drop some of the police beaters covered in bacon fat!

What a treat for the pooches!

I agree with post #1. I have an '07 rancher and not a place 2 ride. Amazing right?

ncb1978, 1--there are more dog owners than ATV owners, 2--dogs need less room than ATVers.

Thank you to Parks and Rec for a great idea; can't wait to go!

The dog beach in Bonita has pooh everywhere.

There's at least a tide to take the feces away.

This is a freshwater lake, and the feces will float and fester with the water ski people riding close by.

Funky dog floaters and freshwater lakes don't mix.

Then there's the plastic bags that pick up the poochie poopies. Another pollutant, that flies into the water.

Funky feces foul up the water quality.

Sick stuff.

beetlejuice is right...

I understand the need for a place in the sun+sand for the pooches. I also understand that Parks+Rec. desperately needs the income $5 a dog will generate. Just imagine how much revenue the ATV crowd would generate if they had a park to ride in!

beetlejuice obviously didn't go to the last one; did you, Vole?

I did, and it was a great time: lots of happy dogs, happy owners and happy spectators. The dogs behaved well and the owners cleaned up the poop.

Too sad that there are such miserable sods out there that they have to naysay and be negative about so much.

Also, I'll take a few dogs over loud, emissions-spewing ATVs any day.

Here's an idea, tie your dog's leash to your ATV and drag it thru the mud and water. Pet owners and ATV owners getting special attention with MY TAX DOLLARS??? I guess its time to fire a few commissioners!

Radio: wow, you actually dragged out the tired "MY tax dollars" rebuttal.

Do you have kids? I don't, but I pay for your children's education. I don't use the library, but I pay for it. I don't ride the bus, but I pay for it. I won't go on; I think you have the idea.

So just s*** it up, radio; your argument is specious.

With your tax dollars RadioNews? Did you miss the part where they are going to charge $5 a dog? With as many people that will take their dogs there, I'd say they're actually making money. Now I've seen it all in this town, not even dogs are liked around here, lol. I have never in my life seen so much complaining, amazing. I am pretty sure that most people will be responsible and clean up after their pets since this is a chance for us to have somewhere to take our pets, I know I always clean up after mine. If you don't like the idea than there's plenty of other places with water you can go too, but with all the old folks around here I'm pretty sure some of them don't get cleaned up after. To those that think it's a great idea I'll see you there :)

My child goes to private school, so you do not pay a dime for his education. As for paying for services such as buses and librarys, I have no problem at all with that. BUT I WILL NOT PAY FOR SOMEONES FREAKING HOBBY!!!

or so someone's stupid pet has a place to swim!

Radionews, I think you totally missed his point. Now lighten up and don't be such a miserable old poop.

Besides, how are you paying for it? They let people and their dogs go swimming for a couple of hours; it's not like they actually had to establish any programs that would require tax dollars to fund. The beach is open anyway.

MIA, I will see you there on July 5th!

This is for the dogs why does everyone have to make to change about their bratty kids!

Wow, maybe I will stop by and take a crap in the lake this weekend.

RadioNews, yep...actually about the same thing. The Parks and Rec folks seem to be forgetting something significant. Perhaps they will change their perspective.

It may be FAC which helps them see what is allowed and not allowed in fresh water.

If you don't know what that is, hopefully the tide will change and health safety and welfare of humans will prevail.

If this doesn't then the fallout should be interesting. Enough said. Time for those who understand FAC to do what they do.

PS. SFWMD made a commitment to find land for those who enjoy riding ATVs Since they have no intent on keeping their legal obligation to Collier County Government, the County decided to find land. They need to do this. The folks who ride up and down our streets (illegally) do so safely and I would never report them, but they need a place to ride. It is dangerous riding where they do. The County really needs to get a move on for the ATV riders!

ColinF, no, I didn't go to the last one. I didn't know about it. I would not have gone then as I know better.
*****************

About FAC:
Laws are put in place by the Florida legislature. These laws are called Statutes. The agencies who are charged by statute with carrying out the mission of the statutes operate under Florida Administrative Code which are the practical manifestations of the statutes. Most of these Codes are consistent with Federal rules (at least the ones that I used to operate under.)

Counties cannot violate the Statutes or FAC or the intent of these laws.

+++++++++++

As a former professional who worked reducing the risk for disease transmission, I personally would never consider swimming in a fresh water lake without an outlet in this climate where dogs were allowed to bathe with humans. It is llogical and a bad choice. Salt water with tidal action is significantly better. But when you see beaches closing in communities consider it may not just be the birds.

All living matter creates waste. Nature has great filters and other measures to reduce waste to matter which nourishes and does not usually cause harm. But...
****************
FAC should prevail. I would be very disappointed if it doesn't, as should the Commissioners who stated in their budget workshops that the health, safety and welfare of their constituents is of the utmost importance to the exclusion of other items in a tight budget year.

Not only do living creatures create waste, but so do vehicles.

I would rather have a few dogs romping in water than acres and acres set aside so that loud ATVs can pollute and trample over vegetation.

In addition, man has done more to create waste in Collier County than a few dogs will ever do.

You can quote statutes, but your arguments lack common sense.

Beechykeen. Would you swim at a closed beach? Eat tomatoes you knew had been recalled? How about drinking water from a pond?

The codes for public health and safety are based on common sense and prevention.

Good luck.
I am NOT fond of ATVs, but these folks had a legal commitment from SFWMD and got hosed. They need to be made whole.

Naples, and once the lake is closed due to fecal contamination, I am sure the "5 dollars a dog" will be enough to pay to clean it up. But, you are probally used to swimming in your own crap!

And just to make you look even more stupid Cracker, who is going to staff the lake to collect the money and ensure people pay for their dogs? Why I am sure it will be a COUNTY EMPLOYEE working overtime. And gosh, who pays COUNTY EMPLOYEES? TAXPAYERS!!

Let us do some simple math and find out who is stupid and who is not.

Pooch Plunge is for two hours. Average country employee for this type of job would make $10 an hour.

Each dog is charged $5. That means that it would take 4 dogs for the country to break even. Obviously, more then 4 dogs are going to show up. So, it would appear that this would cost the tax payers nothing.

And one other point, dogs do not relieve themselves in water.

By the way...
Taxpayer money is used for hobbies. That is the idea of Parks and Recreation. Softball, Tennis, the skate park, etc. So what is the big deal about 2 whole hours a month at a lake? Give me a break.

Would't a huge atv park be fun!

Rick, dogs do not relieve themselves in water? Where in the world to you get such ill-informed information? As for what the average county employee makes, there is not ONE county employee that makes 10 dollars and hour. NOT ONE! Add in the benefits and you will find its closer to 20 an hour. And in a day where county employees are being laid off, outsourced, and fired, don't you think we could make better use of them doing something more important other that making sure dogs don't crap in the water? Just stab my point home, Parks and Recreaction are for PEOPLE not animals!! So go sit on the bench with the rest of the stupid!

Ok, one last attempt to explain why this is not proper and wise.

First, I very much doubt that the Parks Dept.. would want to violate any laws with which the County is obliged to comply. I would bet they never thought of looking beyond a nice feel good idea to make sure there were no obstacles. That being said, they still are obliged to comply with the law.

For those who disagree, fine. Contact your state and federal legislators to change the laws which govern public health and safety. Or, you could move to other parts of the world which have no problem with animals enjoying the benefits of swimming with their owners or even just on their own. India comes to mind. The Ganges River is the life blood. It serves as an open sewer, place to bath for religious reasons and as a drinking water source for many. The animals of this region enjoy the swim. Now that is a river with a flow, but a "lake" is stagnant and poses much more of a risk from fewer pollutants as they do not leave the area. In warm water many pathogens grow and multiply.

Now, in the USA, you can certainly do this in your own pond, should you have one. But when it is a public or community pond, it becomes a problem.

Please don't hesitate to call HHS, CDC or EPA, Feel free to lobby next session in Tallahassee for DEP and DOH to change the rules. If you are successful you may want to consider buying stock in a pharmaceutical company which manufactures anti-diarrheaals, anti-parasitics and the newest strongest antibiotics.

PS, I am aware that the Ganges also gets a lot of industrial pollution. However I used it as a way to illustrate the difference of how the public in the US is protected by laws and rules to eliminate risk to their health and well being.

Remember the concerns about MRSA in the schools? Do you want to do away all manner of disease control? Think about it. The rules can be changed, but there will be consequences if they are. Bacteria, oocytes and amoeba don't think, they take advantage of opportunity. Warm stagnant water is a great opportunity.

Dang, almost makes me want to go back to work. I loved working outbreaks! It was fun and satisfying.

Radio, time for your meds. You are one sorry, sorry dude.

1) Dogs DON'T poop in the water

2) Parks and Rec Rangers are on patrol ANYWAY; no one is working overtime

3) Do you not think that they would have checked Florida statutes before they went ahead and opened up the park? I know for a fact that this was a long time in the works

4) If you don't like it, stay away from Sugden park for those two hours out of the month

ColinF read # 35.

One single gram of dog feces contains over 23 million fecal coliform bacteria along with giardia, samonella, hookworms, tapeworms, whipworms, and roundworms! As for the urban legend that dogs do not poop in water, I bet you still put your teeth under your pillow looking for a quarter from the tooth fairy. Count on me staying away Colon, I have better things and better places to go. I pay for the county employees, and as their BOSS, I do not want them on "dog watch" when they could be more productive! And if your only attempt of banter is "time for your meds", maybe you should stop drinking lake water! Hit the "stupid" bench Colon, theres a spot right next to Cracker for you!

Guess you got me Radio. Now 8 dogs will have to show up. Geez...not sure if it is worth the risk. Might break the bank. Guess I should take your advice and sit on the stupid bench.

I have seen your posts all over NDN over the months. I am not sure if you are truly against everything or enjoy playing the antagonist role. If the former is true, you must have one miserable life.

Rick, maybe you are not as dumb as you sound. You are right, I could care less about anything posted here on a cheap-second rate newspaper blog site. I just use you for a cheap form of entertainment when there is nothing good on the Cartoon Channel. So go ahead and swim with the dogs, just remember this advice, when swimming, like when you are here on the blog, you should always keep your mouth shut, to keep the crap in, and keep the crap out!

Vole read #36

Radio, as for the banter attempt, right back at you for the "Colon" misspelling. What are you, 12?

I'm not going to respond to any more of your posts, because, as they say, you can't fix stupid.

FOLKS it is not legal! The dogs at this beach would violate STATE LAW! don't you get it?

Radio, thanks for understanding risk and microbiology. But beyond that the public use of this beach by humans and dogs is NOT LEGAL. As I said, I very much doubt that the Parks Department was aware of the laws...but ignorance of the laws does not excuse one from being in violation or of the obligation to comply.

Guess is it still FloriDUH when it comes to those who miss the implication of a government agency violating the law, especially one related to the public's health and safety!

If somehow this type of event is allowed to continue, I would be happy to return to my former job tracking down the source of outbreaks. it appears the FDA and CDC could use some assistance with the tomato debacle. Salmonella is transmitted via fecal contamination.

Radio...now that was funny. I wouldn't swim in a small nasty lake like that anyway. Isn't that what pools and the beach are for? I have never been there so I do not know how polular of a "swimming hole" it is. But in my humble opinion, swim at your own risk with or without dogs.

I was hoping you really weren't as slighted as you appear and were using this forum to vent your frustrations. Rather, just the type to let out your alter ego. And your right...this does beat playing free cell or solitaire. Have fun ticking everyone off!

BTV:

Sorry, but I am seriously not going to think that one lone NDN poster is more aware of the law that then agency that is going to be held liable for breaking it.

Also (off-topic, somewhat) looks like Collier Audubon may be on board with the whole feral cat thang. Aren't you the one who swore up and down that they never would be?

Against the law? What are you talking about???

FL State and National Parks Leashed dogs are technically allowed in State and National Parks but are generally excluded from beaches and from many trails. Beaches that generally accept leashed dogs (in at least some areas) include: Bill Braggs, Don Pedro Island, Fort Pierce Inlet, Gasparilla Island, Honeymoon Island, John D. MacArthur Beach, John U. Lloyd Beach, North Shore, Oleto, Tradewinds, Hobe Sound National Wildlife Park
FL Atlantic Beach Leashed dogs allowed, year-round.
FL Hannah Park North of Atlantic Beach. Allows dogs year-round, on lead.
FL Rickencbacker Causeway (Miami) Dogs allowed year-round.
FL Ft. Lauderdale (Dog beach) Area set aside at foot of Sunrise Blvd. Fri-Sun from 5-9 pm only. Must have a permit. Another small are exists north of Sunrise Bld. just south of motels.
FL Smyrna Dunes Park and Lighthouse Point (New Smyrna Beach) Allows dogs year-round, on lead
FL Flagler Beach Allows dogs year-round, on lead.
FL Beverly Beach Camptown Allows well behaved dogs year-round, on lead.
FL Sombrero Beach (Marathon Key) & Key Largo Park (Key Largo) Only beaches currently allowing dogs in most of the Keys.
FL Sanibel Island Island is Dog Friendy
FL Estero (Fort Myers) Beach Dogs allowed in many areas (excpet state parks), on-lead.
FL Lovers Key (south of Fort Myers Beach) A dog beach managed by Lee County Parks and Recreation; allows dogs year-round. Info here
FL Tampa/St. Pete's There are several beaches in this area, most are bayside. Cypress Beach, Dana Shores, North Shore Park, Ft. DeSoto Park, Vinoy Park.
FL Howard Park, Tarpon Springs There is a dog beach along the causeway.
FL Panama City Beach Dog beach at Pier Park, near the pier.
FL St.Geoge Island Welcomes dogs
FL St. Augustine area Anastasia Island has a dog beach. Mantanzas Inlet has an area that allows unleashed dogs, Bay beach that allows dogs year-round.
FL City of Neptune Beach Dogs allowed, year-round, between 5 p.m. and 9 a.m.
FL Venice, Brohard Park Dog Beach, off leash, year-round! With faucets and free baggies. (Ask at Sharkey's Restaurant).
FL Jupiter Dogs allowed on non-guarded beaches, year-round. Must be under voice control.
FL Fire Coast Area south of Jacksonville that allows dogs.
FL Cape San Blas (Between Port St. Joe and Apalachicola). Dogs allowed anytime.
FL Bonita Springs Lovers Key: Dogs allowed anytime, off leash.

Ok...first of all, last time I checked we did not have all of our warm fresh water lakes in a protected plastic bubble. I say this because unless they are and I just haven’t noticed it means that all the wild animals (birds, turtles, raccoons, squirrels, wild cats/dogs and any other animals i've seen in the area and neglected to mention) all have free reign to relieve themselves in the lake should they choose to do so. I haven't been to this ‘swimming hole’ but regardless of whether or not it is fenced in these animals CAN and DO get in there, I promise you that. I don't know how many "fecal coliform bacteria" their droppings have but I am willing to bet that having a few dogs swimming there once a month is not going to tip the scale to make it a matter of public safety (especially as dog owners are much more likely to pick up after their pooches than any wild animal family I have ever heard of).
All bodies of water are going to have some sort of waste and or pollutant in it. Its nature. If you prefer go to the beach and swallow the salty fish excrement instead then please feel free. Either way give it a rest, drink bottled water and let the dogs have their day…

Rickdiculous...you are talking about BEACHES on salt water, not fresh water ponds where people bath. Florida Administrative Code governs this kind of "beach" with limits. Salt water beaches are not permitted and regulated the same way fresh water beaches are. (Yes fresh water beaches are regulated.)

This lone poster just HAD to know Federal, State and local rules and laws in order to do my job. Salt water beaches are monitored for water quality only but not permitted. When the fecal coliform and other indicator pathogens reach a certain levels the results are posted online and the beaches are also posted with an advisory recommending no swimming. To see the current and past results of the tests done on SALT water beaches:

http://esetappsdoh.doh.state.fl.us/ir...

Charlotte County has had some problems of late: http://esetappsdoh.doh.state.fl.us/ir...

If you ever had a microscope take some water from a Florida lake and look at it under the scope. It is teaming with microbes. Some are harmless. Some are not.

I would encourage you to call Tallahassee to get the regulations changed, no skin of my nose. Just don't be surprised at the consequences if you are successful.

For now, I am sure the County, once cognizant of the laws will want to comply. Perhaps they can find a salt water beach in Collier to be a dog beach.

Good day and good luck.

can you imagine how this loser radio talks to his family?Let's all chip in and buy him a dog!!He will thank you for the pet.

OK BTV...your point is understood. I thought you were referring to all public waters, including beaches.

And yes...Collier county is one of the most dog unfriendly counties in the state. Obvious by the list I posted before. But if they wanted to ban smoking on the beach, I doubt they will ever allow dogs. Anyone remember when they were allowed?

Thanks Rickdiculous. I appreciate it. I am not against dogs enjoying water. I used to live in another part of the state and my lab mix really loved swimming with us in the salt water. The east coast has a better dilution rate than many of the bays, btw. We never got sick there. But...we did bathe with soap and water...the dog and us! ASAP.

Collier County should consider opening a salt water beach for dogs.

No problem BTV. I know how to be civil on here, unlike some people. It seems it is easy to miss the whole point but difficult to admit that others may have validity to their comments.

Yes, Collier County should consider it. Maybe I will look into how to start the process. I have a 8 month boxer puppy myself. Never has she pooped in the pool. But she doesn't go anywhere besides our backyard and surprisingly enough, my in-laws rug. Good puupy! She has PPPAD(public peeing and pooping anxiety disorder) I made that up by the way.

Rick: ROFLMAO can I use this acronym?
Take care.

Glad you liked it. Sure be my guest. See you around BTV.

Seriously, I hope local gators don't get word of this. Could get very nasty.

Can somebody find out where RadioNews lives so I can take my 2 poop producers to poop in his yard?

JunkYardDog. the rules have been in place a while. Now the deal is that a government entity at the county level is under the same rules as others who offer a public or community pond/lake for public/community swimming.

We did not have the many "superbugs" which we have now. Cyclosporidia, cryptosporidia and giardia all form oocytes which resist degradation. These parasites can and have caused large outbreaks even in Florida.

The "ol" swimming hole in a county park doesn't work. You can certainly take a swim in a canal if you like...or your own pond. But unless you can change the law which is on the books. then your idea should remain just an idea.

The salt water surroundings of Florida have wave action which flushes bacteria and other microbes out from the beach most of the time. The bottom dwelling creatures such as oysters, shrimp and some fish help break down the microbes or remove them from the water.

BTW, peeing into the pool (swimming pool) is not kosher but since urine SHOULD be sterile it might be a factor only if a lot of people pee at the same time in a small pool and mess up the chemistry. It is the fecal content that can cause intestinal upset and diseases. Some of these pathogens can kill people, but most will give them the classic symptoms quoted in the commercial for a popular over the counter remedy for diarrhea.

My shorts are not knotted or bunched, I just understand the world has changed Junk and the laws which govern public health and safety should not be ignored. As I suggest, call Tallahassee, get your legislators to change the laws back to your vision of Florida. Simpler times, less problems, more fun, no huge outbreaks. Oh, if you go back far enough...wait...Yellow fever? Smallpox? Typhoid fever? Nah, not a problem after all, just made up crises...

Fast forward, E. coli 0.157, current salmonella outbreak...did all of you who had diarrhea see your doc and have a sample sent to the lab?

Dogs can and do carry parasites, enteric bacteria which people can easily acquire. Tell me the kids won't dive into the water and submerse their face, splash water that gets in their mouth? etc.

The world is not the same Junk...Florida is not the same. Change the laws? sure change them. Abide by them until then.

Hi emmy, congrats on your marriage!

beechykeen, yes will see ya there. I can't believe that all this arguing is going on about some dogs having fun once a month, amazing! I know my dog doesn't poop in the water and I've never seen one do it. I've seen kids do it though, I think I'll stay out of pools now. Well have to go now my puppy wants to go poop in RadioNews's front lawn.

watch out for alligators!

Thanks BTV!

I'm sort of on the fence here. I own 2 dogs and take them down to Keeywadin frequently, and they love it. I do wish that CC would open up a dog beach like our neighbors to the north have, but I don't think I'd want to let my dogs swim in the lake. I guess its the freestanding water. BUT, I'm weird and somewhat anal about germs in general and I consider my dogs part of my family.

I get totally creeped out in a public restroom. So I'm not a particularly good opinionater on this subject.

My apologies, Junk, I thought you were talking about my comments since you didn't name names.
.
First, I was not implying one could acquire yellow fever, etc. from swiming with dogs in fresh water. I was talking about the long history of the need for public health regulation in this state (and other states.)

The county park beach is regulated by the State Statutes and is permitted by the local state agency of the state. These rules/laws do not allow for dogs at public swimming places permitted by the state.

The comment about the toddler, I know was meant to raise a comment, but they are allowed in. I don't swim in areas with diaper aged children (unless it is in salt water) for that reason...not even pools with chlorination. Yes, I am a biological scientist.

Again, sorry to have misread your comments, JunkYard!

Emmy, glad to see you back online. You are fine where you take your dogs. Collier needs to find a spot for folks without boats to enjoy with their dogs as long as it has nice tidal flow and wave action. If they do, I would be more than happy to take my two 'pups': the lab mix and the 57 variety mutt. The smaller one likes water as long as his pal (the lab) is with him.

Paddling to Keeywadin with dogs isn't in my realm of capabilities. LOL.

Take care folks.

Exactly BTV, I'm fortunate enough to have a boat. My dogs are small (french bulldogs) and don't well in the heat so they stay home most of the summer because we stay out most of the day when we go down. I'd take them to a dog beach all the time just for an hour or 2 if we had such a thing here in CC.

Radio know nothing....oh I mean Radio News, and the rest of ya without a clue
on dog feces....with the exception of Blue Tongue and maybe emmyd, who just wants to spend time with pets in a nice setting in CC.

Introducing dog feces to a pristine park setting that has...or should I say HAD, a clean freshwater lake in the center, is a BAD IDEA.

Two hours of dogs swimming and dog dumping in OR NEAR a lake is utterly disgusting.

There are no tides to take waste away. Floaters and water ski boaters...GROSS!

Bonita's dog beach has a tide to flush out the filth at least. Yet, there are still some pooh bags hanging from mangroves there.

First thing my dog does at the dog beach is take a dump. He loves it. He loves it so much, he poohs constantly. Three times in ten minutes to be exact. He then lifts his leg on half the beach chairs sitting around. I apologize, but I can't take the urine back.

It will change the water quality at this gorgeous park.

The damage to the environment there will be far reaching for years to come.

Children who swim there are at risk of worms now.

Not to mention the number one reason people come to know and love parks like this in the first place:
PARKS ARE FREE TO GO TO with FAMILIES.

Bring a dog to swim and pooh freely, and we will nickel and dime ya to death, too.

It is a sick decision all around.

It deeply concerns me that the County can stoop to the level of dog poop to bring in some money.

I think the point is not that if it will or won't cause anyone (or any dog) harm, but more of the fact that we have a gazillion better suited areas. Areas that include free flowing water so that there is no doubt about the cleanliness and safety for all who want to enjoy such a place. That’s all it boils down too. We have miles and miles of beautiful coastline for which a small portion could be devoted to dogs and their people friends, and the County decides to pick a small lake.

While I think it’s not the right decision, I do feel like the County is taking a step in the right direction. They are starting to figure out there is more to life than golf. Now if they could just devote some land to the ATV's. Oops. :)

beetljuice, they say that dogs take after their owners!

Radio, after reading most of your comments, I have come to the conclusion that I truly feel sorry for you. I am so sorry that you can not find one better thing to do than to sit here and speak negatively about dogs.<br> "One single gram of dog feces contains over 23 million fecal coliform bacteria along with giardia, samonella, hookworms, tapeworms, whipworms, and roundworms!" <br> As for your scientific breakdown of fecal content, you may be correct, if you are referring to a wild dog, or a dog who's owner should not be one.. Most dogs are taken care of, most domestic dogs in a home where their family loves them do not have worms, salmonella, etc. And Radio, as I can see you have never owned a dog, or cared about one for that matter, what makes you think you know anything about the habits of dogs, such as if they relieve themselves in the water or not. I have spent my whole life around dogs, and many other animals for that matter, and I have NEVER seen a dog relieve themselves in the water, and have had many dogs who loved to swim, and swam every day, wether in a backyard river or my pool. Prior to acting like a know it all, get your facts straight. I challege you to take a day and volunteer at a local dog shelter, maybe then you can see why they are called 'man's best friend'.