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PHOTOS: McCain, Obama clash on cause, cure for economic crisis
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NASHVILLE, Tenn. — Barack Obama and John McCain clashed repeatedly over the causes and cures for the worst economic crisis in 80 years Tuesday night in a debate in which Republican McCain called for a sweeping $300 billion program to shield homeowners from mortgage foreclosure.
"It's my proposal. It's not Sen. Obama's proposal, it's not President Bush's proposal," McCain said at the outset of a debate he hoped could revive his fortunes in a presidential race trending toward his rival.
In one pointed confrontation on foreign policy, Obama bluntly challenged McCain's steadiness. "This is a guy who sang bomb, bomb, bomb Iran, who called for the annihilation of North Korea — that I don't think is an example of speaking softly."
That came after McCain accused him of foolishly threatening to invade Pakistan and said, "I'm not going to telegraph my punches, which is what Sen. Obama did."
The debate was the second of three between the two major party rivals, and the only one to feature a format in which voters seated a few feet away posed questions to the candidates.
They were polite, but the strain of the campaign showed. At one point, McCain referred to Obama as "that one," rather than speaking his name.
"It's good to be with you at a town hall meeting," McCain also jabbed at his rival, who has spurned the Republican's calls for numerous such joint appearances across the fall campaign.
They debated on a stage at Belmont University four weeks before Election Day in a race that has lately favored Obama, both in national polls and in surveys in pivotal battleground states.
Not surprisingly, many of the questions dealt with an economy in trouble.
Obama said the current crisis was the "final verdict on the failed economic policies of the last eight years" that President Bush pursued and were "supported by Sen. McCain."
He contended that Bush, McCain and others had favored deregulation of the financial industry, predicting that would "let markets run wild and prosperity would rain down on all of us. It didn't happen."
McCain's pledge to have the government help individual homeowners avoid foreclosure went considerably beyond the $700 billion bailout that recently cleared Congress. While he said bailout money should be used to help homeowners, the bailout legislation merely gave the Treasury Department authority to purchase mortgages directly.
"I would order the secretary of the Treasury to immediately buy up the bad home loan mortgages in America and renegotiate at the new value of those homes at the diminished value of those homes and let people be able to make those payments and stay in their homes," he said.
"Is it expensive? Yes. But we all know, my friends, until we stabilize home values in America, we're never going to start turning around and creating jobs and fixing our economy, and we've got to get some trust and confidence back to America."
McCain also said it was important to reform the giant benefit programs such as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.
"My friends, we are not going to be able to provide the same benefit for present-day workers that present-day retirees have today," he said, although he did not elaborate.
The two men also competed to demonstrate their qualifications as reformers at a time voters are clamoring for change.
McCain accused Obama of being the Senate's second-highest recipient of donations from individuals at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the two now-disgraced mortgage industry giants.
"There were some of us who stood up against it," McCain said of the lead-up to the financial crisis. "There were others who took a hike."
Obama shot back that McCain's campaign manager, Rick Davis, has a stake in a Washington lobbying firm that received thousands of dollars a month from Freddie Mac until recently.
Pivoting quickly to show his concern with members of the audience listening from a few feet away, he said, "You're not interested in politicians pointing fingers. What you're interested in is trying to figure out, how is this going to impact you."
But that didn't stop the two men from criticizing one another repeatedly as the topics turned to energy, spending, taxes and health care.
Obama said McCain was going to require taxes on the health benefits workers receive from their employers at the same time his plan would wipe out the ability of states to enforce their own regulations to require tests such as mammograms.
McCain countered that under his rival's plan "Sen. Obama will fine you" if parents fail to obtain coverage for their children but had yet to say what the fine would be. "Perhaps we will find that out tonight," he said.
Obama quickly followed up, saying that McCain "voted against the expansion" of the children's health care program the government runs.
The two men prefer dramatically different approaches to easing the problem of millions of uninsured Americans. McCain favors a $5,000 tax credit that he says would allow families to find and afford health care on their own.
Obama wants to build on the current system, in which millions receive coverage through the workplace, with government funding to help uninsured families obtain coverage.
Obama also said that American International Group Inc., which was bailed out by the government, should give the Treasury $440,000 to cover the costs of a company retreat at a posh California resort less than a week after the federal intervention. "Those executives should be fired," he said, referring to the participants in the retreat.
The debate also veered into foreign policy, and the disputes were as intense as on the economy and domestic matters.
McCain said his rival "was wrong about Iraq and the surge. He was wrong about Russia when they committed aggression against Georgia. And in his short career he does not understand our national security challenges. We don't have time for on the job training."
Obama countered with a trace of sarcasm that he didn't understand some things — like how the United States could face the challenge in does in Afghanistan after spending years and hundreds of billions of dollars in Iraq.
The audience was selected by Gallup, the polling organization, and was split three ways among voters leaning toward McCain, those leaning toward Obama and those undecided.
Tom Brokaw of NBC, the moderator, screened their questions and also chose others that had been submitted online.
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Obama won this one...McCain left the house early...bad sign!
#1 Posted by NYEM on October 7, 2008 at 11:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Go McCain.....won this one hands down. really showed statesmanship and Obama showed what a lightweight and how out of touch he is. Obama just droned on and on and said nothing
#2 Posted by GeorgeJetson on October 7, 2008 at 11:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
As a Republican I am absolutely disgusted with McCain's poor performance in these debates. I was bored to tears with McCains whiny, no confident attitude. Why did we get this awful choice?
Republican Party, thank you for guaranteeing Obama the Presidency.
#3 Posted by Sanity on October 7, 2008 at 11:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
What got McCain so mad that he stormed out immediately after the debate? I thought this was supposed to be his format. He seemed uneasy and edgy. Obama was relaxed and cool!
McCain's storming out at the end made him appear to be a sore loser!
Obama shined.
McCain wants to have another bail out. That is HUGE news. He wants the fed to buy up all the bad loans. The rightwing isn't going to like that idea at all!
Healthcare according to McCain should be a "responsibility." According to Obama it should be a "right."
Obama/Biden '08!
#4 Posted by Ironside on October 7, 2008 at 11:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sanity, I appeciate your honesty. It adds credibility to your debate.
Thank you!
I mean that.
#5 Posted by Ironside on October 7, 2008 at 11:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
***appreciate
#6 Posted by Ironside on October 7, 2008 at 11:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am sorry to say, but at 72, McCain seems like he's out of touch with reality...We need to stop electing people like George W. Bush, who say they put America first, but economically harm it...McCain will be an imitation of George W's 8 years...We are not ready for that...
...If we continue this trend, there wont be an America, the beautiful but an America, the broke...and wont be available to stop terrorists of Russia's communist recontruction...
#7 Posted by NYEM on October 8, 2008 at 12:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)
wont be able to stop terrorists and/or Russia's communist reconstruction..
#8 Posted by NYEM on October 8, 2008 at 12:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
McCain is no Bush! Do your homework and look at his voting record. He was against Bush more than he voted with him. Barack Hussien Obama's tax plan will put America's businesses in the dirt. Does he not realize that those in the 250K tax bracket and higher decide the paychecks of a lot of Americans and decide the prices at the grocery store. The ball always runs down hill and the middle class and poor will take it in the shorts. Lower taxes for everyone!
#9 Posted by reality101 on October 8, 2008 at 12:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I think Obama floundered on the topics of foriegn relations. He didn't answer the questions and said UHHH...about 100 times. You can't deny that McCain has more experience. The security of our nation in the future will rely heavily on someone who has served our country and knows how to communicate with foriegn countries. Obama has no clue....you can't negotiate with terrorists...but I think he doesn't see them as terrorists...he may be one of them?? YOu have to ask yourself..why isn't his history/life available for the public to view? Including his thesis from Harvard which is restricted until after the debate. I want someone who is up front with the people and does not have to hide his past. McCain's record is on the table for all to view. What has Obama done to better this country???
#10 Posted by reality101 on October 8, 2008 at 12:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Correction: His thesis is not available until after the election. and Michelle Obama's too.
#11 Posted by reality101 on October 8, 2008 at 12:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)
reality101
would you feel safe, if McCain died while in office, would you feel safe having Sarah Palin as the President of the United States of America...
...from what I have seen, not me...and she would only be a heartbeat away from the presidency.
Best Choice: Obama/Biden
#12 Posted by NYEM on October 8, 2008 at 12:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I actually met her yesterday and I will tell you. I would vote for her to be the President!! She is a very intelligent woman of integrity. She is not a trained politician. She gets it.....small government, let the American's have their country back from BIG business. Look at her record in Alaska...WOW...not many politicans can say they have accomplished that positive of a direction for the American people...she can and she has proven it! She is a woman of TRUTH. Not much left of that in Washington! Oh.. and she does have more experience than Obama.
#13 Posted by reality101 on October 8, 2008 at 12:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)
All you had to do was to watch Oprah to know Obama's history...there is nothing wrong by being raised by a white mom and white grandma...or by having a father from Kenia...do you resent the white part or the black...do you resent that he is well spoken and educated..unlike the Republican candidates...
#14 Posted by NYEM on October 8, 2008 at 12:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
NYEM..Pelosi is two heartbeats away from the Presidency..now that is scary!
#15 Posted by reality101 on October 8, 2008 at 12:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Wasilla is no bigger than Bonita Springs and Alaska's population is less than that of any big city in the US..less than memphis, tenn. 670,053
#16 Posted by NYEM on October 8, 2008 at 12:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
NYEM..Actually Barack's real name is Barry and he changed it after attending a school in Kenya that allowed him to further his muslim faith...He then made the decision to change his name to Barack Hussein Obama. OPRAH used to attend the same church as Obama with Rev. Wright. She supports radicalism which is no different than the KKK. Why won't she have Sarah Palin on her show until after the election? I think Oprah is a racist.
#17 Posted by reality101 on October 8, 2008 at 12:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
NYEM..Wasilla/Alaska...what has Obama been in charge of? He won't even show up to Senate meetings. He has collected a paycheck on the taxpayers dollar without even showing up.
#18 Posted by reality101 on October 8, 2008 at 12:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
All I can say about Sarah is that she was chosen. Biden, Obama and McCain put their names in the hat. Palin was hand picked and for numerous postive reasons.
#19 Posted by reality101 on October 8, 2008 at 12:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Like Bush..she left her town broke with a $15 million hockey arena...she is a spender...likes big government...she's from a small town with small town values...42 meth houses were busted in a single year...Wasilla was named the meth capital of Alaska...wink..wink
#20 Posted by NYEM on October 8, 2008 at 1 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Sarah's interview with katie on CBS news is a reason why Oprah doesnt think is a good idea to have her on the show...
#21 Posted by NYEM on October 8, 2008 at 1:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Are you on welfare now or are you soon to be on welfare? How many meth houses do you think the country will face if Obama is the President? There will be no Middle class left with his horrible tax plan.
If your for Obama what do you think he is going to do that is so great? From his past what do you see that is so great for America? I'm curious..
#22 Posted by reality101 on October 8, 2008 at 1:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Sure the media is great at filtering what they want people to see...Does Biden know some of those questions they were asking her...Don't think so...Even Clinton agreed with that! What about the VP debate..Sarah was so TRUTHFUL! Biden lied at least 10 times or should I say twisted his answers.
#23 Posted by reality101 on October 8, 2008 at 1:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)
...sarah was chosen because she is a cute hockey mom...she's being used to distract us from the real issues...she can see Russia from her house and that gives her foreign policy experience...come on! Because I can see Habana from key west doesnt give me foreign policy experience...she's nuts!
#24 Posted by NYEM on October 8, 2008 at 1:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The future of USA may be decided by creditors of federal debt, not President and Congress.
Will your vote be part of the solution, or the problem?
Voters for either "old party" president or congress nominee, choose the status quo
of government over-regulation and over-spending,
which leave unintended consequences to young people and future generations.
Bob BARR is the only candidate offering the combination of a crackdown on excessive government spending along with concern for civil liberties.
http://www.bobbarr2008.com/press/pres...
http://bobbarr.meetup.com/65
#25 Posted by jacktanner on October 8, 2008 at 1:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
jacktanner..your right, in most cases the President's hands are tied. AMEN go Palin..she is for less government and more input from the American people!
#26 Posted by reality101 on October 8, 2008 at 1:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
NYEM..and Barack was chosen because he is a black man? Sounds stupid doesn't it!
#27 Posted by reality101 on October 8, 2008 at 1:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Look at Clinton's 8 years...and follow the script....look at George W. Bush and learn from his management style...on what not to do...
...Bush and McCain have the same blood...they are warriors..will start wars thinking it's the right thing to do...NOT so!! We live in a world that is dangerous, yes...but we cant start wars on the premise that someone might attack us, we will attack them first...NO,NO...think...dont act and ruin the country...dont kill inocent lives just because,,,
#28 Posted by NYEM on October 8, 2008 at 1:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Sarah Palin's approval rating is over 80% in Alaska by both parties in Alaska. Says a lot considering our congress has a rating below 25%. She has the highest approval rating of any one holding a public office in the nation! That says enough for me! PROVEN RECORD..TRUTH..INTEGRITY..CHRISTIAN
Enough said.
#29 Posted by reality101 on October 8, 2008 at 1:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
He won the primaries...beat Hillary and the rest..because he's in touch with reality...his economic advisors are most of Bill Clintons, that's promising...
#30 Posted by NYEM on October 8, 2008 at 1:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Good night everyone...will be back tomorrow..
#31 Posted by NYEM on October 8, 2008 at 1:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Iceland teeters on the brink of bankruptcy
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081007/a...
http://www.bobbarr2008.com/press/pres...
http://bobbarr.meetup.com/65/
#32 Posted by jacktanner on October 8, 2008 at 1:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
i LIKE HER TOO...she's a Babe...but i would not vote for her...she's a very good looking woman...very attractive...who cares if she has no brains ...she's a beauty queen!
#33 Posted by NYEM on October 8, 2008 at 1:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)
NYEM..do you realize that more people died of violent crimes under Obama's reign as Senator in Illinois than died in the Iraq war. It is a volunteer army and those men and women are not forced to die for our country. They are the very brave Americans who choose to fight for your freedom when they signed up(I have two family members over in Iraq right now and they vote McCain). Muslim's teach there people to hate America from the day they are born. Thier ideology teachs that as long as a war is waged against them on their soil, they can not fight the enemy on the enemy's soil. What do you think is going to happen if we were the pull the troops out immediately. The Radical Islamic Ideologists will try to bring it here to America. We already have them filtering into our country one by one. I have friends in England and they are being taken over by these radicals. IT IS TIME FOR AMERICA TO WAKE UP! We can not vote a Radical OBAMA into the White House.(his Harvard application proves this, he checked the box ISLAMIC for race!)
#34 Posted by reality101 on October 8, 2008 at 1:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)
McSame sort of reminds me of when we had to tell my grandpa that he should no longer be driving. It was sad.
#35 Posted by babbas on October 8, 2008 at 5:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Stick a fork in McCain... He's DONE.
What a GREAT debate.
I am so proud of Barack "THAT ONE" Obama! LOL
#36 Posted by Ironside on October 8, 2008 at 6:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Was anyone else outraged when McCain looked at the African American who asked a question and said "you probably don't even know who Freddie and Fanny are"? --- what a demeaning condescending arrogant statement!
#37 Posted by thedudesview on October 8, 2008 at 6:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)
reality: What in the world are you thinking? Islam is a religion, not a race. I can guarantee you that Harvard would never have Islam listed as a race, so stop perpetuating these lies.
Where do you get this info? From sorerepublicanlosers.com?
#38 Posted by beachykeen on October 8, 2008 at 7:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
VeniVidiVici: stop wasting your time and get a life. oh and BTY -- No one reads the long cut and paste posts
#39 Posted by thedudesview on October 8, 2008 at 7:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)
McCain - thank you for guaranteeing Obama the Presidency:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eniG9l...
#40 Posted by cornandbeans on October 8, 2008 at 7:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)
VeniVidiVici: Did you do a Google search to get your information? Because you should have researched it more thoroughly before you cut and pasted.
Pipes is a radical nutjob who doesn't believe that there's room for any sort of diplomacy or compromise.
Why he's in USIP no one knows because he's widely known as a bigot and he is not well-thought of at all, including by PM Sharon.
#41 Posted by beachykeen on October 8, 2008 at 7:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Ironside,
#4
What were you watching? After Tom Brokaw wound it down the camera clearly showed both McCain and Obama shaking the hands and speaking to the people in the audience. Are you referring to McCain taking a quick side step when Brokaw said, “Excuse me Senator McCain you are standing in front of my script?” He did not “run out” he just quickly stepped out of the way so Brokaw could read his script. Maybe it was the channel you were watching. I was watching on PBS. McCain was still “working the crowd” when they broke off to the “talking heads.”
#42 Posted by fromhere on October 8, 2008 at 8:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Your correct fromhere...
The cameras kept their view on Obama working the crowd...which said volumes to me. However,McCain was shaking hands long after the debate was over...every once in a while the cameras would pan out and you would see McCain over at the other section of people talking and shaking hands.
I viewed...MSNBC, PBS, CNN and FoxNews...all were focused on Obama.
#43 Posted by SaraBeth on October 8, 2008 at 8:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)
No way!
Liestopper is "CutThroatLiberal?"
OMG...that explains everything!
He told BTV the other day he just likes to come on here to "Stir the pot"....makes sense now.
#44 Posted by SaraBeth on October 8, 2008 at 8:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
NYEN,
#14
You pick your president based on Oprah? HELP!
#8
Yes, please look at Clinton. He has a lot of integrity. About ten days ago he said in an interview that one of the main reasons that were are in economic crisis was the repealing of the Glass – Stegall act. He said that occurred in 1999, he supported the repeal and he was wrong. See the problem is you believe everything Obama says. The problem did not start in 2000, it started in the 1970’s when Carter pushed through legislation for sub-prime mortgages so “everyone can share the American dream.”
As far as starting a war Obama said that he felt that we should get militarily involved in any conflict where he felt there was a moral obligation. Now that is really scary. I prefer only to be involved to that level if it is a matter of protecting our national interests.
Sanity.
#3
I have to agree with you. McCain did not do as well as he should have in the debate. I wish he had watched the news with Katie Couric before going on last night. According to what she reported, 60% of small businesses earn over $250,000 in income a year and file their taxes as private individuals. Obama considers that a “very small percentage.”
Thedudesview,
#37
You were not listening were you. What McCain said was, “until recently a lot of you probably had never heard of Freddiemac or Fannymay.” I admit, I could not tell exactly who he was looking at when he said it.
#45 Posted by fromhere on October 8, 2008 at 8:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Fromhere...
Your wasting you breathe.
Obama supporters are screaming..."He is the "Chosen One" and he is "Change."
All I see "Changed"...is the color of the politicians skin..."Back in Black."
He lies as much as the rest of them..
He makes promises he will not keep..
He spends our money on pork BS...$3 million projector for a Planatarium in Chicago...PLEASE!
He has changed his position on issues as much as the other candidates have during this campaign...
He is just another politician...period.
"Back in Black"
#46 Posted by SaraBeth on October 8, 2008 at 9:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)
VeniVidiVici: I assumed you could extrapolate from my response that of course I reject Piper's claims. Since that proved too difficult for you, then let me say: I reject Piper's claims that Obama is Muslim.
Obama has said he was a practicing Christian, has attended church regularly for years and was sworn in to the senate on a bible. A Muslim would NEVER do that.
Piper is educated, true, but that doesn't mean he is right. He is a bigot, plain and simple.
#47 Posted by beachykeen on October 8, 2008 at 9:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Yeppers BeachyKeen...
and we have all witnessed Obama's faithful Reverand haven't we?
He has practiced his Christain ways under that wonderful Reverand for 20 years...
Oh..that is right...after sitting in his Reverands pew for twenty years, Obama never knew the Reverand was such an "American Hater"...or so racist against "Whites."
PLEASE!
#48 Posted by SaraBeth on October 8, 2008 at 9:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
beachykeen,
VeniVidiVici never claimed that he is not a Christian now. He said Obama lied when he claimed to never have been a Muslim. Changing the question is not the same as answering the question. Which by the way Obama is very good at changing the question so he does not have to give an answer. The amazing thing is it appears that half of American doesn't even notice he is doing it.
#49 Posted by fromhere on October 8, 2008 at 9:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Wasn't it Hillary Clinton (Democrat) that brought up the issue of Obama's true faith?
#50 Posted by SaraBeth on October 8, 2008 at 9:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Chicago Sun Times
Sept 08, 2008
"Oops! Barack Obama says 'my Muslim faith' in interview with ABC's George Stephanopoulos"
http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics...
#51 Posted by SaraBeth on October 8, 2008 at 10:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Sara,
You know, I have been asking people to go research Obama in his hometown newspapers for months and they just don't want to do it. I think they just don't want to know the truth about the guy.
#52 Posted by fromhere on October 8, 2008 at 10:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
McSame sort of reminds me of when we had to tell my grandpa that he should no longer be driving. It was sad.
#53 Posted by babbas on October 8, 2008 at 10:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I know the feeling babbas..
I suggested that my son of 34 years old stop driving the other day. After so many speeding tickets, passing on the yellow line and and running stop signs...I think it is time to go back to driving school...or realize that you aren't as smart as you think.
#54 Posted by SaraBeth on October 8, 2008 at 10:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)
babbas,
First, as you infer that McCain and Bush are the same person, please go back and actually look at the records. He is not. That is the typical BS only listen to your candidate nonsense.
Second, get off the blogs and go research both McCain and Obama where it makes sense to do so. I suggest, Chicago Sun Times and Tribunes, Wall Street Journal, The Economist, The New York Times, and there are any number of non-partisan web-sites. Read what the candidates have both said and done during their careers, who has been behind them, what they voted for and against and more importantly why they say they voted the way that they did. Then come back with logical arguments with facts that can be checked. Make an informed decision, not a knee-jerk reaction. And please hurry up, the election is less than a month away.
#55 Posted by fromhere on October 8, 2008 at 10:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Your suggesting that someone actually do some research fromhere?
So Unamerican...LOL.
#56 Posted by SaraBeth on October 8, 2008 at 10:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
OBAMA HAS MUSLIM BLOOD, HE IS NOT TO BE TRUSTED. VOTE MCCAIN!!
#57 Posted by Hendry on October 8, 2008 at 10:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
fromhere...gee I don't know where to start with you, so I'll simplify it for you. I'm tired. I'm a thirty-six-year old married man that has been a close observer of government all my life. I've voted for both parties in the past. Congress and the pres are out of control and have lost their concern for the people who put them there. GOPers may have the dems to blame for the mortgage crisis, but that's just a smokescreen for how they have plundered this great country of our assets and allies. Both of these candidates stink, but one clearly is the less of two evils. I'm not going to back up my claims because, at this point, only a pure idiot would side with McSame, and I am tired of idiots.
#58 Posted by babbas on October 8, 2008 at 10:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This is funny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtZlR...
#59 Posted by Elle on October 8, 2008 at 11:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)
babbas,
Lets see, I have about 15 years on you, married, kids, mortgage, etc., been an independent voter since I was old enough to register to vote. I have voted for both Republicans and Democrats. I always have research both liberal and conservative view points (truth usually falls between the two positions) as well as the foreign media as it often is more insightful than our own. I also study history, economic, political, and military. I never resort to name calling and always try to form an argument based on formal logic. I, not only listen to what the candidate says, but what they have done, who they associate with and whether they follow through with their promises. Oh, one other thing, I check, not only how they have voted, but why they say they have voted that way. As an example, McCain said he could not vote for a military funding bill that included a calendar for the withdrawal of troops from Iraq. He did exactly what he said he would do, and if you know anything about military history you never do anything based on a specific time table. That is a mistake we made in Vietnam. We told the north the exact date that we intended to have our military forces out of South Vietnam. They promised not to take any aggressive action. Look how that turned out.
Might I suggest, on foreign policy and the use of the military you read Sun Tzu, The Art of War. It was written in about 500 BC, is actually very short, about 50 pages. After reading it and realizing that through the tenants laid down by Sun Tzu over 2,500 years ago you can analyze every military conflict ever fought and see why the winning side won and the loosing side lost. It really is very fascinating. I know John McCain has read it as it is required reading at all military academies. I also know Obama has not based on things that he has said.
All I ask is a logical argument based on the facts. Name calling and irrational statements are a sign of loss of control. We can not control everything, but when we loose control of those things we can and should be controlling we tend to make bad decisions. All I ask is check the facts, read the media who has reported on the individuals (i.e. on Obama it would be the Chicago papers, which tend to be liberal) and debate.
#60 Posted by fromhere on October 8, 2008 at 11:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)
fromhere...first of all, the word is "lose" not "loose". Or it's "losing" and not "loosing". Second, I'm telling you right now... I am fresher blood than you. I'm more separated than you are from the old way of thinking in this country that ultimately doesn't work. Your vision is clouded. I am an avid researcher who takes great pride in puting myself in the shoes of others in order to see all sides of the story. Thank you for politely responding, by the way. P.S. I will be running for office as soon as time dictates.
#61 Posted by babbas on October 8, 2008 at 11:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Obama's Youtube Arrogance Just Became A Nightmare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sj91N...
Whose President elect will Obama be?
Democrats Against Barack Obama.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tplfWn...
I was there on 09/11/2001.
I was a teenager during the Vietnam War.
I have lived in this County for 53 years.
I have never declared to be for one party or the other.
McCain 2008
#62 Posted by SaraBeth on October 8, 2008 at 11:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)
SHOCKING Obama words: what he really thinks of white folks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI77cU...
#63 Posted by SaraBeth on October 8, 2008 at 11:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Babbas,
Good luck to you in your political endeavors. I was asked by Sydney Pollak in the 1980’s if I would consider running for the U.S. Congress (lived in Washington, DC at the time, Sydney, if you are not familiar with him was referred to as a political king maker in DC). I decided against it as the process is both dirty and corrupting. Kind of like wearing your dirty shorts on the outside if you know what I mean. I often wonder what I would be doing if I had taken him up on the offer.
You need to stop thinking in the new way and the old way and start thinking in the “what are the potential consequences” way. For example, according to a report by Katie Couric last night, and I admit freely I have not checked this out personally, over 60% of small business earns $250,000 a year or more in income and files their tax returns as private individuals (sole proprietorship). So what Obama is proposing is raising the takes on 60% of small business (according to the report). What effect is that going to have on the economy when small business makes up somewhere in the vicinity of 80% of all businesses?
Thanks for pointing out my typo, you are correct it is lose and I do recommend reading Sun Tzu if you haven’t.
#64 Posted by fromhere on October 8, 2008 at 11:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Here's a sign of how boring the second debate was: The Web is filled with gasps over the supposedly explosive moment in which McCain objectified and downright dehumanized Obama by calling him "that which must not be named but shall forevermore bear the searing birthmark of our scorn." To me, it was more interesting how wizened and grumpy both McCain and Brokaw seemed. Beside them, Obama looked about 14.
Every time McCain tried a joke, it flopped; he sounded like grandpappy trying to tell the one about the duck, again. Every time McCain tried to show contempt, he sounded pinched and crabby, and burdened by the syntax of another era. What in tarnation was he trying to achieve?
Two weeks ago, I asked for guesses here about what McCain's NEXT stunt would be. It turns out he didn't have one. But now, the need is even more critical, and the nature of his challenge has crystallized: By the next debate, he needs to seem younger and more vigorous. How is he going to do that?
#65 Posted by badhairday on October 8, 2008 at 11:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
badhairday,
Give me a grumpy old man over a 14 year old for president any time. (Your words)
#66 Posted by fromhere on October 8, 2008 at 12:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If your small business is making a quarter million or more, you are doing well. You will be taxed. Take some responsibility. We spend our whole lives trying to figure out how NOT to pay taxes at every job we take. Now, we are seeing the ramifications of decades of this abuse. Granted it's hard to swallow a tax increase when the money goes straight into bailing out big-business failures.
#67 Posted by babbas on October 8, 2008 at 12:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Babbas,
Small business, filing as a sole proprietorship or partnership, are taxed on income, not profit. If you have 6 employees that are making an average income of $45,000 a year, your business income is over $250,000 a year and you have not yet accounted for benefits, insurance, cost of goods sold, overhead, etc. Remember, a sole proprietorship or partnership is taxed on income, otherwise known as gross receipts. Yes, there are deductions that they can take, but you want to raise the taxes substantially on a large and critical segment of our economy at a time when they can least afford it. I have been watching these types of businesses fall by the way-side with increasing rapidity in the past few years in our area. If Obama is able to enact the tax changes he has espoused you will see these businesses die off wholesale.
#68 Posted by fromhere on October 8, 2008 at 12:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Post #9:
Quote;
" Does he not realize that those in the 250K tax bracket and higher decide the paychecks of a lot of Americans and decide the prices at the grocery store. The ball always runs down hill and the middle class and poor will take it in the shorts."
How are those trickle down economics working out for you?
Personally, I'm still waiting for some of that gravy to splash on my taters!!
And just where are we going to get the money to buy up all the bad mortgages?? What crisis? $850 billion here $300 billion there. I thought the economy was bad.
And over $250,000 small businesses getting taxed more. That's net, not gross. So they will still be able to write off that 72" LCD high def with surround sound "computer monitor".
Insurance for everyone,Social Security easily fixed, flying cars and free energy!!
Let's face it, neither one of these guys can deliver on their promises.
Alfred E Newman for president!!!
;-)
#69 Posted by Optipess on October 8, 2008 at 12:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Good Lord, fromhere. I know what you are trying to say, but... it's out of context. If you have six employees making $45K per year, you better be making some bucks and not teetering on the fence, financially. What business are you speaking of and compare it to the thousand other different small business situations out there? Some don't need six employees making $45K per year to make big bucks.
#70 Posted by babbas on October 8, 2008 at 12:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Fromhere, I get what you're saying. The bottom line is small businesses are the ones who will take the fall for everyone.
I don't agree with hiking up the tax rate on those making over $250k per year. I think everyone should be taxed at the same rate. Most of those people are working their tails off to "earn" that money, especially if is a small business. Not saying that someone making $40,000 per year isn't, but there is a difference.
#71 Posted by GatorBite on October 8, 2008 at 1:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
babbas,
So you do not think a company that employs six people should be defined as a small business? The local convenience store usually employs at least 6 people. Your local privately owned restaurant employs over six people. The retailer down the street, the salon where your wife gets her hair cut, do I need to make a list for you? I agree, there are people that are self employed and their only employee is themselves that make some big bucks, but most business' require employees, overhead, benefits, etc, etc, etc.
That is what I meant when I said don't think in terms of new and old school thinking, think in consequences. I wish if made $250,000 a year. I as an individual would not have a big problem paying more, although I, as anyone making that kind of money, would look for whatever breaks I could find. The problem is that the IRS makes no distinction between the individual and the sole proprietorship or partnership.
Tell me what you mean by it's out of context.
#72 Posted by fromhere on October 8, 2008 at 1:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey GatorBite,
How are you doing? Did you see above that babbas wants to go into politics, but has some idea that younger people are somehow more in tuned with progressive thinking. I am trying to get him to think more in terms of actions and consequenses and logical processes instead. I think he is begining to get it. I don't think it will change his mind on his vote, but if he does get it, and actually does run for office he might start debating analytically. If he does get it I might just support him. Of course I have know idea at this time who he is.
#73 Posted by fromhere on October 8, 2008 at 1:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"The problem is that the IRS makes no distinction between the individual and the sole proprietorship or partnership."
Nicely put. Now there is a great example of clear thinking that can solve a problem. This is the kind of work that needs to be done. Why can't the two parties work together as a "team" approach and really show some care for the well-being of this country?
#74 Posted by babbas on October 8, 2008 at 1:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Babbas!
Hip hip hooray!
In the words of Winston Churchill, “the English are a common people separated by a common language!”
Now you are getting what I have been saying.
Ok, has Obama said anything about changing the way that sole proprietorships and partnerships are view by the IRS?
NO
He thinks that 60% of small business which comprise 80% of our economy is, to use his word from last night, “insignificant”. That terrifies me.
What office are you thinking of running for?
#75 Posted by fromhere on October 8, 2008 at 1:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hold the cheers and spare me the "can't be done"s because I'm going to abolish the bipartisan system. No boos, either.
#76 Posted by babbas on October 8, 2008 at 1:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
babbas,
I would love to continue our conversation here, but I have a conference call and then a doctors appointment. It sucks getting old!
If you want to continue this shoot me an email by clicking on my online handle and following it to my email.
Good talking to you.
#77 Posted by fromhere on October 8, 2008 at 1:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Babbas,
I saw your post about abolishing the bipartisan system. I don’t think it can be done. Single party will lead to communism or dictatorship and three or more parties lead to coalition governments which tend to be fragile and even more dysfunctional than the bipartisan. No parties, might work, but would probably become anarchy.
What we need are statesmen (or women) that are more interested in the issues and the good of the majority of Americans than in getting re-elected. I say majority as nothing is going to be in the best interest of everyone. I hope, if you run and are elected you make your decisions based on statesmanship rather than on either self interest or politics.
#78 Posted by fromhere on October 8, 2008 at 2:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
LieStopper I too am a die hard republican and have voted republican all of my life. I come from a family of republicans and now for the very first time in my whole long life I am voting.............
OBAMA/BIDEN 2008 YEAH YEAH YEAH
#79 Posted by fudge on October 8, 2008 at 3:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
me too
#80 Posted by thedudesview on October 8, 2008 at 3:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
What about flat tax(say10%)to everyone
I always thought that was a great idea
Can someone explain,seems fair for all
#81 Posted by houdal on October 8, 2008 at 3:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Can we bring Hillary back?
I didn't like either one last night. Not at all!!!
#82 Posted by BlueTonguedVole on October 8, 2008 at 3:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
houdal,
If we has a flat tax, think of all of the out of work accountants.
Plus, the income to the government would not be sufficient. Look at the present tax schedule.
http://www.moneychimp.com/features/ta...
Right now you pay 10% on the first $8,025 of income. Everyone would have3 to pay more like 20 to 25%.
#83 Posted by fromhere on October 8, 2008 at 4:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
fudge is one of many who are thinking about America's future in this race.
Thank goodness for common sense.
Then there's blatant ignorance, like Hendry, who belongs with his correctional facility and says yey, McCainiac.
Come on...if U do live in Hendry, there's hardly a connection in McCain's ideas to the people of Hendry. If he's elected, his wife will sell some beer to U all, and that's about it. McCainiac's CAN'T RELATE TO THE AVERAGE AMERICAN, yet ALONE to anyone close to poverty level in America. They are so above ideals of American families. It is sickening to watch the saga of their thoughtless discussions.
Meanwhile, Obama and his FIRST WIFE, Michelle are sincere in their reasons for running. They want the best for America. They care about families here. They know what public service is all about, and they live up to leadership expectations of this great nation.
OBAMA/BIDEN will win!
Anyone wanna bet me?
#84 Posted by beetlejuice on October 8, 2008 at 9:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Do I hear a bet or two on who will win?
Come on Repubbies...put your money where your mouth is!
Any Indies in on this bet?
#85 Posted by beetlejuice on October 8, 2008 at 9:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
fromhere #49
The question was that there was no history anywhere about Obama.. ,,"YOu have to ask yourself..why isn't his history/life available for the public to view?"
My answer was...you could have seen oprah to know Obama if you didn't know him...Oprah , who is also black, and very successful among Americans is not liked much by reality101 because ...she is black..and possibly muslim., according to her...so what? ...anyone's choice of religion is anyone's prerogative...protected by the first amendment of the constitution... and people enlist in the armed forces so we can enjoy our religious freedom in America...
But it seems like reality101 doesn't like Obama because of his father's religion...I grew up catholic...but now that i am older i am no longer catholic,, i am a christian...should i be now crucified because i was raised a catholic? Should Obama be crucified because of his current religious beliefs?...That is plain stupid...
People, especially in America, change...there is nothing wrong with Obama's upbringing and current christian belief...that should not be an issue...
Now, if you hold that only your belief system and values are worth more than others...and have no tolerance over people practicing islam, catholicism, or buddhism, zen buddhism, or native american indian religion...then you have a problem and you live in a country that doesn't have a problem with that...
#86 Posted by NYEM on October 9, 2008 at 12:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Reality101:
"Muslim's teach there people to hate America from the day they are born. "
I seriously doubt it...There are many who practice islam here in America...(about 5 million)http://www.islamawareness.net/Islamop...
I know people who practice islam in America, and they don't wake up like zombies wanting to blow up a building....they are normal people who practice the religion of their upbringing..just like you practice the religion of your upbringing...
People freaked out when the Twin Towers went down in 9/11...since then, their tolerence level toward muslims has diminished...Many of you didn't care about muslims until 9/11...that was a natural reaction ...the country had been attacked and the 19 muslims, osama bin laden and alkaeda are not the only people responsible....you want to include the world's 1.84 billion muslims... http://www.islamicpopulation.com/
I am a Hispanic American from Mexican descent...and among Hispanics from Puerto Rico, there are many who are Americans and Muslim...
#87 Posted by NYEM on October 9, 2008 at 1:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Now..go to Puerto Rico and tell those American kids growing up in the Islamic faith that you are not OK with them becoming their US President...
#88 Posted by NYEM on October 9, 2008 at 1:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
...even if they go to Harvard Law School...
#89 Posted by NYEM on October 9, 2008 at 1:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
NDN- Please allow this passage from the US Constitution...
Article Two of the Constitution sets the principal qualifications to be eligible for election as President. A Presidential candidate must:
-be a natural-born citizen of the United States;
-be at least thirty-five years old;
-have been a permanent resident in the United States for at least fourteen years.
-Additionally, the Constitution disqualifies some people from the Presidency. Under Article One of the United States Constitution, the Senate has the option, upon conviction, of disqualifying impeached individuals from holding other federal offices, including the Presidency. Under the Twenty-Second Amendment, no one can be elected President more than twice.
-The Twenty-Second Amendment also specifies that anyone who serves more than two years as President or Acting President, of a term for which someone else was elected President, can only be elected President once. Under the Twelfth Amendment a person who is no longer eligible to be President may not be Vice President either.
-Foreign-born Americans at the time the Constitution was adopted were also eligible to become President, provided they met the age and residency requirements.
Finally, while they are not in any way requirements:
-Thirty-one of forty-two Presidents had military service records; all but one of them (James Buchanan) served as an officer.
-Every president has had prior experience as a Congressman, Senator, Cabinet Secretary, Governor, General in the U.S. Army, or as Vice President of the United States.
-Every president to date has been a white male.
-Every president to date has been a Christian; all but one have been Protestants, with the most common denomination being Episcopalian; John F. Kennedy has been the only Roman Catholic. Ronald Reagan was baptized a Catholic, but he was reared in the Disciples of Christ faith by his mother.
-Although the Presidency entails numerous foreign obligations and policy issues, most Presidents have had limited or no understanding of a language other than English. Martin Van Buren is the only President who can be considered fully bilingual (his first language was actually Dutch). While most early Presidents could read and write Latin (as was customary for educated people of the time), none had command of a spoken foreign language. George W. Bush and Jimmy Carter have limited knowledge of Spanish but neither is a fluent speaker. With regard to current presidential candidates, John McCain speaks no foreign languages; Barack Obama learned Bahasa while living in Indonesia as a child, and speaks some Spanish.
Where do you read here that you CANNOT be a muslim to be the president? Being an Episcopalian helps, but it is NOT a requirement!
#90 Posted by NYEM on October 9, 2008 at 1:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
HE LIED: Controversy has surrounded a series of crashes involving planes piloted by John McCain while serving in the U.S. Navy. In his autobiography, the Republican presidential candidate maintained that a couple of the accidents were caused by engine failure. But an official investigation by the Naval Aviation Safety Center makes clear that the first accident, in March 1960, was caused exclusively by pilot error.
The Facts
During the course of his flying career with the U.S. Navy, John McCain was involved in at least five major mishaps or crashes involving his plane. The most dramatic incidents occurred in 1967. He barely escaped with his life after a missile exploded aboard an aircraft carrier, the USS Forrestal, in July of that year, killing 134 of his fellow crew members. In October, McCain was shot down over Vietnam by a surface-to-air missile.
U.S. Navy records make clear that no blame can be attached to McCain for either of these incidents. McCain was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross on his return from Vietnam and cited for his "superb airmanship" in the abortive raid on the power plant in Hanoi that ended with his capture and imprisonment by the North Vietnamese.
Mystery has surrounded the precise circumstances of the three earlier incidents, and particularly an accident on March 12, 1960, while McCain was still in flight school at Corpus Christi in Texas. The McCain campaign has either ignored or failed to respond to requests by The Washington Post and other news organizations for the release of the candidate's full military records, which could shed light on the accidents and the pilot's personal involvement.
#91 Posted by badhairday on October 9, 2008 at 8:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The official Navy report into the Corpus Christi accident on March 12, 1960, concludes that the AD-6 Skyraider trainer crashed because McCain failed to "maintain an airspeed above the stall speed." It attributed the accident to "the preoccupation of the pilot coupled with a power setting too low to maintain level flight." The single-engine prop plane sank to the bottom of Corpus Christi Bay. McCain was rescued by a helicopter after swimming to the surface.
The accident report excluded a series of other possible factors, including engine failure and disorientation of the pilot due to vertigo. It recorded pilot error as "the sole contributing factor" to the accident. A copy of the report was obtained by The Washington Post from the Democratic National Committee, which conducted research at the Naval Historical Center in Washington. McCain's responsibility for the accident was first reported by the Los Angeles Times here.
McCain had another accident with a T-2 trainer jet in November 1965, while flying between New York City and Norfolk, Va. The Naval Aviation Safety Center was unable to determine the precise cause of the accident or the degree of pilot error. McCain wrote later that his engine "flamed out" and he had to eject.
In his autobiography, McCain recalls another mishap around December 1961 when "I knocked down some power lines while flying too low over southern Spain. My daredevil clowning had cut off electricity to a great many Spanish homes and created a small international incident." He landed his Skyraider back on the USS Intrepid after the incident, which does not appear to have triggered a safety investigation.
The Pinocchio Test
McCain's claim that he crashed into Corpus Christi Bay in December 1960 after his "engine quit" is a considerable stretch. U.S. Navy Safety records make clear that the plane crashed because his power setting was too low and he was failing to pay sufficient attention to his landing pattern.
#92 Posted by badhairday on October 9, 2008 at 8:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)
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